tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post2786749040289006600..comments2024-02-23T21:44:21.191-08:00Comments on Insufficiently Random: The horrors of PVCS Version ManagerShawnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04158038862839573213noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-48267978369568837692013-03-01T08:27:47.222-08:002013-03-01T08:27:47.222-08:00:))))
Our organization uses Serena PVCS for 10+ ye...:))))<br />Our organization uses Serena PVCS for 10+ years now.<br />We are currently using... version 8 planning to migrate to... Dimensions.<br /><br />The project I work on, is mainly integrating code from other teams and after a "Z" team delivery integration, I have ~500 changed files (from ~2500), removed ~50 and added ~50 new. <br />With a some batch files and pcli scripts, I was able to automate this process, to require only about 10 minutes batch file configuration.<br />Now our management requires that we use links between the different builds we support (for reasons mystical and unknown to mere integrators). As our baseline labels are different for the different builds (which have hard links between them), I cannot use the scripts anymore. <br />I cannot honestly believe that someone has made the choice to use PVCS after objective evaluation of its "features".Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00942879643165101060noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-56243684951250861952013-02-14T08:52:53.485-08:002013-02-14T08:52:53.485-08:00Just to let you know I still have to deal with PVC...Just to let you know I still have to deal with PVCS. The company has been using it for ages, and only now started to say it 'will migrate' to SVN some time soon.<br />My stress level skyrocketed when I had to start dealing with PVCS, especially due to the lack of repository-level diff tools.<br />I ended up using a parallel Git repository, where I actually maintain my files, and only upload to PVCS when I'm done here. This has restored the sanity to me and my team.@somatandohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04796131615595136951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-91898085911130447082010-07-29T16:15:15.254-07:002010-07-29T16:15:15.254-07:00Even WORSE than PVCS is Serena Dimensions (AKA Dum...Even WORSE than PVCS is Serena Dimensions (AKA Dumbensions or Dementians). We're forced to use the web client because of our pinheaded management. This is the slowest POS I've ever used in my life. Think of a skeleton sitting in a chair while Dumbensions goes ca-chunka-chunka-chunka. I was happier with PVCS if that's possible...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-36442066730141524812010-07-20T09:00:08.971-07:002010-07-20T09:00:08.971-07:00You can work with Branches and Labels(Version Labe...You can work with Branches and Labels(Version Labels) on PVCS. :)Gerald Varashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14795280028153248847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-46233057575587855992010-06-08T11:00:16.536-07:002010-06-08T11:00:16.536-07:00PVCS? Have features like ClearCase? Not really.PVCS? Have features like ClearCase? Not really.Shawnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04158038862839573213noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-2887671114302951492010-06-08T10:43:04.050-07:002010-06-08T10:43:04.050-07:00I'm from a ClearCase background, recently join...I'm from a ClearCase background, recently joined a project and have to adapt to PVCS. It's reality, I've accepted it. Any advice? Is there any way to manage branches and labels like "Label Type's" and "Branch Type's" like ClearCase does?<br /><br />Please help.Kylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02736964700399034110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-9885424060198220322005-07-26T03:11:08.000-07:002005-07-26T03:11:08.000-07:00Amen to that brother! PVCS sucks majorly, any help...Amen to that brother! PVCS sucks majorly, any helpful documentation on the web, you must be joking!<br><br>CVS can be a pain, but it can be worked out and there are millions of resources for it.<br><br>Like you, I'm stuck with version 6.8, so can't even use the eclipse plugin, source control - IDE plugin = major pain in the ass!<br><br>But luckily I also get to use TrueChange, the 2nd most crappiest Source control software in the world..James Rendernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-20042494530701865302005-08-05T05:46:41.000-07:002005-08-05T05:46:41.000-07:00All of the shortcomings you have pointed out are i...All of the shortcomings you have pointed out are in fact shortcomings but they are misguided. I think your problem is the knowledge of your SCM team. I have been a CM for 8+ years and could fix everything you are encountering inside of a month. I have admin'd in clearcase, pvcs, cvs, harvest, and Vss. They are all good and all bad in separate aspects it just basically comes down to the knowledge and creative solutions of the support team.Jeffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-57448330213160049882005-08-06T17:26:25.000-07:002005-08-06T17:26:25.000-07:00Jeff - There is a lot of truth in what you are say...Jeff - There is a lot of truth in what you are saying. Our CM team doesn't seem to want to address any issues, just keep things as they are. Unfortunately this is a larger organizational problem, as many teams are like this. It is a rather deep rooted problem. Just changing our CM lead would likely not improve the situtation very much.<br><br>PVCS VM isn't in and of itself a bad tool; but when compared to other solutions available it does seem rather limited. I'm actually glad this CM team isn't trying to deploy ClearCase - that would be a nightmare. PVCS VM may have given our team enough rope to hang the developers with; ClearCase would have given them not only the rope, but more than enough guns to shoot our feet off with too. :-(spearcenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-20232932735287913762005-08-08T19:14:44.000-07:002005-08-08T19:14:44.000-07:00From what you've described, your development e...From what you've described, your development environment completely ignores all of the basic fundamentals of team development using a SDLC approach. That's "System Development Life Cycle", for all you cowboys out there.<br>Where's your common repositories for compiled and tested code at the integration test level, the system test level, and the unit test level? If you've all got your own version of the code and your own personal builds, and you don't use the PVCS project hierarchy or version locking and branching (it does work) or access control etc. etc. then its no wonder you had problems.Bob Mettamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-75175322942433744882005-08-10T13:00:38.000-07:002005-08-10T13:00:38.000-07:00Completely ignores? Quite so, but not entirely.We...Completely ignores? Quite so, but not entirely.<br><br>We have promotion groups on each individual archive. Individual archives are promoted into each testing level based on management approval. Once an archive has been promoted into a level a new build is generated and provided to the testing team.<br><br>Unfortunately since we are controlling revisioning at an individual file basis changes which span 4-5 files often are "torn apart", wherein 3 of the files are promoted, but the others aren't. This is primarily because the individual file promotions are done manuallly by people other than the development team. The developers however spend several hours each week trying to debug why the latest build for a level isn't working properly.<br><br>We try to use the PVCS project structure, but we can't rely on it as there's tons of projects which don't belong anymore just lying around. When files are deleted developers don't know they are going way and wind up having them still on disk. Etc.<br><br>We do lock revisions prior to making changes, but then nobody else can modify the archive while it is locked. The archive also can't be promoted while it is locked. So while we try to use locks to prevent concurrent modification of source, in practice it means at least 50% of the time you have changes in files but you must unlock them to let another developer make a 1 line patch, or let the "configuration management" team promote the archive into the next level of testing.<br><br>We also try to use PVCS branching, but our admins can't seem to setup the archives properly to do it. Half of the time a new archive isn't setup to deal with branching correctly and the developers are left to fend for themselves when they don't get the right version, or they lock the wrong revision and check in their changes into the wrong branch.<br><br>I think the post above by Jeff was correct: a huge problem in our organization isn't so much PVCS VM itself as our "change management" team actually being a "change prevention" team who doesn't manage anything. It may be possible to fix or work around all of the warts that we are dealing with in PVCS VM, but why when there are better tools on the market which don't require work arounds?spearcenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-72697663754948746862006-02-18T14:48:29.000-08:002006-02-18T14:48:29.000-08:00Our admin had tried to promote files using PCLI. ...Our admin had tried to promote files using PCLI. It was going to take something like 5 hours to promote 800 files. Which is crazy. :mad:<br><br>I recently was able to automate the PVCS VM web interface. Fortunately the web client uses basic HTML forms to send commands to the server which made it possible to "automate" actions via JavaScript. Things which are easily scripted in CVS (like check in a new revision of 100 files with the same comment) takes 300 lines of JavaScript and a lot of CPU time for Internet Explorer. But at least I'm not doing it by hand anymore.spearcehttp://www.spearce.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-39226992857193146862006-02-18T10:04:02.000-08:002006-02-18T10:04:02.000-08:00After using CVS for 11 years and moving to a govt....After using CVS for 11 years and moving to a govt. project that is forcing us to use PVCS I can not beleive that people actually PAY MONEY to use PVCS. If you ever want to "have some fun" try checking out the source code under UNIX using their PCLI utility. It is odd how something as simple as "getting the code" in CVS is so freaking screwed up under PVCS.Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-66872044981107781682006-05-13T17:11:43.000-07:002006-05-13T17:11:43.000-07:00[...] Yeah, I know, I know. Fair enough. And as I ...[...] Yeah, I know, I know. Fair enough. And as I suggested above, a conservative change-slowly,-if-at-all approach isn’t always a bad thing from a high-level management perspective. It’s the way it percolates down to the team level that I find more depressing. Ah well. Maybe I’m fooling myself and I’m just too much of a cowboy at heart. [...]Pete’s Babbling Blog » PVCS and whitespaced filenames hell(?)http://flooble.net/blog/2006/05/14/pvcs-and-whitespaced-filenames-hell/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-55815765746035989722006-05-25T13:32:14.000-07:002006-05-25T13:32:14.000-07:00i completely agree. pvcs is HELL. last week was th...i completely agree. pvcs is HELL. last week was the first time i got my feet wet with the horrible system. there wasn't a a way to check if the source tree in my workstation was up-to-date with a single click of a button (how i miss eclipse's synchronize). but i'm stuck with it. i am too young and my voice is too small to be heard by the big boys. i'll just have to find a way to make things easier. it's their money they're wasting anyway.borsintakhttp://borsintak.com/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-75371947719232490692006-05-30T05:10:13.000-07:002006-05-30T05:10:13.000-07:00spearce, your admin is doing it wrong. PCLI is ve...spearce, your admin is doing it wrong. PCLI is very scriptable, and you should not be launching a copy of it for each file you are promoting. I can update 400 files in under a minute with my script. Try adding something like this to your pcli file<br>run -y label -v"$ADDCHANNEL $ADDLABEL" @itfiles.lst<br><br>then you can call it like this: pcli run -slabel.pcli<br><br>you have to fill in the variables of courseRob Dunhamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-21527270209926489652006-06-08T05:53:48.000-07:002006-06-08T05:53:48.000-07:00Hello,For those of you who have worked with both P...Hello,<br>For those of you who have worked with both PVCS and ClearCase, would you recommend one over the other?<br>My customer is trying to decide between the two. We use a very primitive version of PVCS here and the ops team<br>is not very good at using its features. Thanks.Kalanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-66267946145639440572006-06-30T02:23:11.000-07:002006-06-30T02:23:11.000-07:00After spending one week on this product, I have to...After spending one week on this product, I have to agree it is piece of scrap! How can anyone pay for this thing.Kcuf Fcvpnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-77205363590314099422006-07-13T01:53:09.000-07:002006-07-13T01:53:09.000-07:00Hi there, just read your comments. Most of your pr...Hi there, just read your comments. Most of your problems are down to the way you config management team has got PVCS set up, NOT down to the product! PVCS VM is perfectly capable of handling ALL of the issues you've highlighted... IF you set it up correctly! IMHO you need to have a long chat with your PVCS admin and explain exactly (a) what you find annoying about PVCS and (b) what you really want to achieve from a code management tool. I suspect you have a PVCS admin that doesn't undertstand the full capabilities of the tool, and has restricted it accordingly.<br><br>In short... don't blame the product, blame the admin!<br><br>Trust me, we use PVCS with over 200 developers using native GUI and the web browser interface, and have NO complaints... but then, we know what we're doing ;)Coopnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-76460270918382485502006-08-13T20:11:34.000-07:002006-08-13T20:11:34.000-07:00Amen I was just sending this mail to my team membe...Amen I was just sending this mail to my team members. When I did PVCS sucks search on google<br>10 deadly sins of PVCS aka Dimensions aka Changeman aka Serena aka Merant:-<br><br>Executive Summary: PVCS aka ... should be thrown out of the site.<br><br>1. No parent workset for the item. I must always remember where the item comes from, when doing merge from my workset to the parent. For example workset BORISU contains items from TTFW, CMN and APP. I must be very cautious not to export items from BORISU to CMN that really belong to RS APP. The tool takes no responsibility here – and it should. It should automatically place items where they belong. The annoying part of it that you can mistake it easily and it goes unnoticed and the tool has no option to reverse the action.<br><br>2. Merge and compare tool is real horror. – Merge tool is the working horse of any CM tool. I would be really embarrassed by being member of Merant’s Merge development team. This tool only, makes PVCS irrelevant for serious work. Merge is inherently difficult task but using the tool like Merant merge makes it really painful. It is buggy, has incomprehensible and confusing GUI. The most annoying part of cause is trying to understand what window represents which part of merge process. (This is ancestor? No? Then where is it? And what is this funny window with lines?).<br><br><br>3. No directory/workset content management. Adding/Removing files are not easily traceable (you never know who made export/import into workset and when) which causes the situation where removed files are appearing a new after they were removed – which is very frustrating. To remove the file I must find all the items and remove it from every workset– why it is not done automatically? When doing merge by exporting all items into workset it is mandatory to run compare tool before in order not to insert already removed files. I expect from the tool to warn me that file was removed from the system event if do not run compare tool before the export and do it manually.<br><br>4. No transaction management in import/export/checkout/check in/.... Cannot cancel the action completely after it has begun. If you didn’t do baselines to do the workset snapshot before, you eat it. It has to be done by the tool automatically!<br><br>5. No partial merge in merge tool (which is itself is horror – see 2) - If you made changes to 200 files you must merge all of them at once. Yes, I know you can make it per directory but this is workaround. And what if files are in different, not easily grouped, directories?<br><br>6. All this PR CR “IN RESPONSE, AFFECTED” bullshit. <br><br>7. No simple updating worksets from baseline. When you want to downgrade to baseline you must remove all items and export them. I expect to be as simple as choosing baseline and aligning all items by revisions included in baseline. However it is impossible see 3.<br><br>8. No simple remaining of files, no linking to files, <br><br>9. No Integration with explorer. I expect checkout being as simple as right click in explorer window.<br><br>10. No group uploading files in PC Client – must use Web Client à two different clients???? Why for Christ’s sake?<br><br>Well I couldn’t stop!!!<br><br><br>11. No different management for sources and products. – causing incomprehensible version trees of Jar files.<br><br><br>12. No GUI automatic actions where it is a must.<br><br> When uploading items choosing design part by default (Yeah I know there’s no connection between file system and design parts but it should be!)<br><br> Suggesting lately used PR/CR – it is soooooo annoying do type them again and again.<br><br><br>13. Why any workset apart from general workset must contain more than one revision of the file? – It is confusing and unnecessary. All different revisions are scattered amongst different workset and their location is completely voluntary – what the purpose of it? - .<br><br><br><br>I think any other CM tool is worth a shot.Borisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-24265479333126585022006-08-30T01:18:07.000-07:002006-08-30T01:18:07.000-07:00Hi BorisI think you're slightly off the point ...Hi Boris<br><br>I think you're slightly off the point - PVCS Dimensions has nothing to do with PVCS Version Manager, they are very different beasts. Also, Changeman is a Z/OS based product, and has nothing to do with UNIX/Windows, which is the area that Version Manager handles. Whilst I appreciate that you might have had a bad experience with PVCS Dimensions, your comments simply aren't relevant to a discussion on PVCS Version Manager (or, for that matter, Changeman ZMF).Coopnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-30645549031404218422006-10-09T03:32:05.000-07:002006-10-09T03:32:05.000-07:00BroisYOU have no idea what you are talking about :...Brois<br><br>YOU have no idea what you are talking about :) I am using PVCS Professional v8.1.0 (aka PVCS Version Manager). That's a different product from PVCS Dimensions. They are two different products sold by the same company. They work differently. Look on the vendor website:<br><br>Here is the link for PVCS Dimensions : http://www.serena.com/US/products/dimensions/index.aspx<br>Here is the link for PVCS Professional (aka PVCS Version Manager): http://www.serena.com/US/products/pvcs/pvcs-version-manager.aspx<br>Just to confuse matters, they USED to call their mainframe product... Changeman ZMF. They still do:<br>http://www.serena.com/US/products/zmf/index.aspx<br><br>They may be re-branding the entire suite to be called ChangeMan.<br><br>Both called PVCS. Both Serena.Coopnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-22306258229786875782006-09-24T23:05:49.000-07:002006-09-24T23:05:49.000-07:00Scoop. You have no idea what you are talking about...Scoop. You have no idea what you are talking about. I am working with Changeman (aka PVCS aka Dimensions) version 9 on Windows.Borisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-53509451210231112006-10-25T08:48:57.000-07:002006-10-25T08:48:57.000-07:00We use Serena Dimensions 9.1.3 and I have previous...We use Serena Dimensions 9.1.3 and I have previously used ClearCase/Clearquest. I honestly have to say that Dimensions is awkward to use at best. It is partly our misuse as an organization but even if we had the right lifecycles, etc... the tool just doesn't stand up to the Rational/IBM clearX suite. One of the major problems seems to be the lack of version control for the workset directory structure. Most software systems need to be slightly cognizant of the filesystem structure they are running in. Being able to re-arrange the workset directories at will without any version managment is a major shortcoming in my opinion. Besides that there are numerous annoyances and basic design flaws with Dimensions. Just off the top of my head...why do I have to drill down to a given design part each time I switch views in the web client? Can't the tool remember where I was in each view? What if I want to export a portion of a design part structure into a new product...etc... <br><br>Finally, you have to wonder why marketing keeps changing the name of the product...pcvs, Serena Dimensions, ChangeMan, etc... are they trying to hide the reputation?Demented Developernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7214366369588984730.post-61112438666333297332006-10-31T19:39:13.000-08:002006-10-31T19:39:13.000-08:00Quote "...Finally, you have to wonder why mar...Quote "...Finally, you have to wonder why marketing keeps changing the name of the product…pcvs, Serena Dimensions, ChangeMan, etc… are they trying to hide the reputation?..."<br><br>YES THEY ARE!!!!!Borisnoreply@blogger.com